Looking for PC: I compile a lot of things.

[asheshAmbasta]

Mijn vraag:

Hello,
My apologies for writing this in English. I'm an English speaker living in Belgium. I'm a Linux user and a programmer by profession. Being a programmer, I work on complex systems where I need to compile a lot of things, quite frequently, build docker images and have them deployed on servers. Many times I prefer to do this locally than via a CI/CD pipeline.
I recently got a ThinkPad P52s from my company but I've been disappointed with it so far. It seems like a laptop that is heavily under-performing, mostly because on Linux its quite hard for me to use the nvidia card and drive good performance (I happen to have 2 4K displays: one on the laptop, and one external; and both of these can really bog down this laptop. There's noticeable typing lag etc. on Chrome/Emacs etc.).
Since I work from home quite often; I'm thinking of setting up a powerful home desktop. I've come to realize that there is just not that much power one can pack into a laptop and my workloads generally demand a lot from the machine. I commute to Brussels often (2-3 times a week) but then I can also run my workloads on my home computer via ssh.
I've been browsing pc-specialist and I've done some research but I wanted some advice from people who know much more than computer hardware than I. I've not kept up to date with recent hardware trends, but from my basic research, what I've found is:
1. AMD Threadripper seems to be the ideal CPU for these kinds of workloads (especially the 16 core WX model; apologies for not remembering the numbers)
2. No more nvidia for me; their Linux support is not good, and it seems unlikely to change in the near future; so I'd like an AMD based graphics card
3. Ideally, I'd like to drive 2-3 4k displays, but I can go for a lower res. monitor as well; while 4K displays are nice, they're not magically going to make me more productive; that will enable me to cut on GPU costs; but maybe I can add additional GPUs later?
4. I'd like a motherboard that copes up with the demanding Threadripper setup; and is extensible
5. I'd like to know how often the insides of a desktop need cleaning/vacuuming, since I reckon it also will gather dust. How often does one need to clean it?
---

My apologies if my questions are those of a hardware/desktop noob. The last desktop I had was in 2006 and since then I've been on laptops and have not cared about my hardware much. But quite recently, I seem to have realised that when performance counts, so does form factor (basic thermodynamics).

---

Thanks a lot in advance. I've attached a test offerte from PC specialist; albeit it mistakenly has the nvidia card included. I'd like to replace that with an AMD based GPU.
...

Relevante software en hardware die ik gebruik: Emacs/Haskell/Linux
...

Wat ik al gevonden of geprobeerd heb: ThinkPad P52s

...
Current hardware:

Lenovo ThinkPad P52s 20LBCTO1WW
Intel Core i7-8550U
32GB in dual channel
Intel UHD Graphics 620+NVIDIA Quadro P500 2GB GDDR5
1TB NVMe
...

[ Voor 2% gewijzigd door asheshAmbasta op 18-05-2019 11:30 . Reden: added full hw info ]

[-The_Mask-]

How good does the software you use scale over multiple cores?

[MAX3400]

I would suggest trying to read / understand (maybe Google translate) the 3 sticky topics in Desktop Aankoopadvies and adjust your post accordingly.

Although it seems you have a good knowledge of "what" your PC must do on a daily basis, I am missing a fair bit of information being: what software, what workloads, is everything multithreaded, what are your current bottlenecks.

For all we know is you current machine just slow because the harddisk can't keep up with certain calculations which translates in suboptimal usage of the CPU, for instance.

[asheshAmbasta]

-The_Mask- schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 10:09:
How good does the software you use scale over multiple cores?

Thanks for replying; here are my points:

1. Emacs
Poorly. Emacs is single threaded by nature, and sadly, it has become the editor of choice in my workflow. However, Emacs, in my case, is almost not doing any of the heavy lifting, just text editing.

2. GHC (Haskell compiler)
Extremely well. Haskell the language, and its compiler, have excellent multicore support and optimisations.

[asheshAmbasta]

MAX3400 schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 10:11:
I would suggest trying to read / understand (maybe Google translate) the 3 sticky topics in Desktop Aankoopadvies and adjust your post accordingly.

Although it seems you have a good knowledge of "what" your PC must do on a daily basis, I am missing a fair bit of information being: what software, what workloads, is everything multithreaded, what are your current bottlenecks.

For all we know is you current machine just slow because the harddisk can't keep up with certain calculations which translates in suboptimal usage of the CPU, for instance.

Hi, Ok, fair point. I'll adjust the post.

To answer your questions:

1. Disk throughput
That doesn't seem to be the issue. This is a top of the line TP with 1TB NVMe storage. I've tested the disk throughput with file copies/writes and that doesn't seem to be the bottleneck per se.

2. Workloads/workflow
At the top level, my workflow is a bit like this: I fire up the text editor, and start writing code, say in a particular module of a large project. I then compile that module using GHC (the Haskell compiler). At the same time, I use Google chrome as my default browser to read documentation and also have a REPL open to interact with what I've just programmed, to run it etc. I also need to locally run Postgresql, MySQL and Redis. The applications when run locally are not DB/Cache heavy, so the databases seem to add very little to the CPU load.

What I see that this machine struggles with is even, say, scrolling on Google Chrome: the fan fires up and even scrolling seems to be a little laggy. It could be that driving 2 4K displays is what the computer is struggling with, even so, since my GPU is underutilised: using nvidia on linux is a complete pain.

Once I've written the module(s) and recompile the entire project and package it within Docker and ship it (push it to a remote repo).

My workflow also requires running Slack/Spotify in the background, both of which (Spotify to a lesser extent) are memory hogs.

The issues I'm facing is that I feel that this laptop seems to always have trouble keeping up with the workload. It seems to be playing catch up to what I want to do.

[-The_Mask-]

The reason I asked is because the next generaties Ryzen CPU's on socket AM4 should come with 16 core's. If you don't need more than 16 core's AM4 could make more sense. It doesn't look like you need all the PCI Express lanes that Threadripper has. If however more then 16 core's is useful and memory bandwidth is also very important then Threadripper makes sense. Threadripper has a quad channel memory controller and goes till 32 core's at this moment and 64 core's in the future.

[|sWORDs|]

Could you provide more details of your P52s? Like exact CPU model and amount of memory?
Even a Ryzen 2700 or 2700X would probably be twice as quick as an i7-8550U, so maybe Threadripper wouldn't be necessary. I'm also not seeing why you'd require a dedicated GPU for your workloads.

About the amount of dust in a machine, that depends on so many factors, like the location of the case, how often you vacuum the room, and the type of case/fan setup. If you build and place your system well cleaning could only be needed once every two years, but if you do it wrongly it could be full of dust every month.

On the topic of cleaning, you should never vacuum a PC, just disconnect the fans (or jam them) and use a can of compressed air and some microfiber cloths.

[ Voor 46% gewijzigd door |sWORDs| op 18-05-2019 11:00 ]

[asheshAmbasta]

|sWORDs| schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 10:54:
Could you provide more details of your P52s? Like exact CPU model and amount of memory?
Even a Ryzen 2700 or 2700X would probably be twice as quick as an i7-8550U, so maybe Threadripper wouldn't be necessary. I'm also not seeing why you'd require a dedicated GPU for your workloads.

About the amount of dust in a machine, that depends on so many factors, like the location of the case, how often you vacuum the room, and the type of case/fan setup. If you build and place your system well cleaning could only be needed once every two years, but if you do it wrongly it could be full of dust every month.

On the topic of cleaning, you should never vacuum a PC, just disconnect the fans (or block them) and use a can of compressed air and some microfiber cloths.

Here's the HW info: https://gist.github.com/a...5ffde56aa1b5d148328e59288 (lshw output)

I was assuming that having a dedicated GPU to drive multiple 4K displays was the recommended way to go, but if I can cut costs there, I'd like to. I never do any gaming, and all I do is have a multi-monitor setup and watch some YouTube or other videos now and then. That is pretty much the extent of my graphics usage. :-)

[Uszka]

Ryzen 7 and Threadripper doesn't have intergrated graphics so you need a dgpu. GT 1030 with HDMI and DP is enough for two 4K screens.

[|sWORDs|]

asheshAmbasta schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:03:
[...]


Here's the HW info: https://gist.github.com/a...5ffde56aa1b5d148328e59288 (lshw output)

I was assuming that having a dedicated GPU to drive multiple 4K displays was the recommended way to go, but if I can cut costs there, I'd like to. I never do any gaming, and all I do is have a multi-monitor setup and watch some YouTube or other videos now and then. That is pretty much the extent of my graphics usage. :-)

Just to sum that up:

Lenovo ThinkPad P52s 20LBCTO1WW
Intel Core i7-8550U
32GB in dual channel

Could you run:

code:

lshw -numeric -C display

Uszka schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:06:
Ryzen 7 and Threadripper doesn't have intergrated graphics so you need a dgpu. GT 1030 with HDMI and DP is enough for two 4K screens.

Yeah, the Ryzen 7 and nondedicated GPU remarks where not related.

[ Voor 18% gewijzigd door |sWORDs| op 18-05-2019 11:17 ]

[asheshAmbasta]

|sWORDs| schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:16:
[...]

Just to sum that up:

Lenovo ThinkPad P52s 20LBCTO1WW
Intel Core i7-8550U
32GB in dual channel

Could you run:

code:

lshw -numeric -C display

[...]


Yeah, the Ryzen 7 and nondedicated GPU remarks where not related.

https://gist.github.com/a...le-lshw-numeric-c-display

Thanks for helping out.

[|sWORDs|]

asheshAmbasta schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:18:
[...]


https://gist.github.com/a...le-lshw-numeric-c-display

Thanks for helping out.

Intel UHD Graphics 620, so either you don't have an NVIDIA GPU besides it, or it's not active. What does lspci show?

[asheshAmbasta]

|sWORDs| schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:20:
[...]

Intel UHD Graphics 620, so either you don't have an NVIDIA GPU besides it, or it's not active. What does lspci show?

lspci: https://gist.github.com/a...5d148328e59288#file-lspci

And yes, I'm using this in the 'hybrid' mode where I can selectively 'fire-up' the nvidia GPU using primusrun or optirun to run some applications under it. I've tried running 'exclusively' on the P500 to some strange results (the linux nvidia drivers have a limitation for DPI related scaling on HiDPI, with some tedious and hit-miss workarounds).

[|sWORDs|]

asheshAmbasta schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:23:
[...]


lspci: https://gist.github.com/a...5d148328e59288#file-lspci

And yes, I'm using this in the 'hybrid' mode where I can selectively 'fire-up' the nvidia GPU using primusrun or optirun to run some applications under it. I've tried running 'exclusively' on the P500 to some strange results (the linux nvidia drivers have a limitation for DPI related scaling on HiDPI, with some tedious and hit-miss workarounds).

Yeah, I just found the configuration page for that laptop all models have a P500, so this is your current laptop:

Lenovo ThinkPad P52s 20LBCTO1WW
Intel Core i7-8550U
32GB in dual channel (2x Crucial CT16G4SFD824A 16GB DDR4 2400)
Intel UHD Graphics 620+NVIDIA Quadro P500 2GB GDDR5
1TB NVMe

You might want to add that to the startpost.

[ Voor 5% gewijzigd door |sWORDs| op 18-05-2019 11:29 ]

[asheshAmbasta]

|sWORDs| schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:26:
[...]

Yeah, I just found the configuration page for that laptop all models have a P500, so this is your current laptop:

Lenovo ThinkPad P52s 20LBCTO1WW
Intel Core i7-8550U
32GB in dual channel (2x Crucial CT16G4SFD824A 16GB DDR4 2400)
Intel UHD Graphics 620+NVIDIA Quadro P500 2GB GDDR5
1TB NVMe

You might want to add that to the startpost.

Thanks a ton! I've added it.

[|sWORDs|]

Just to give a very rough idea:

CPU	TDP	Single Threaded Rating	Multi Threaded Rating	Price (Euro)
i7-8550u	15W	2140	8295	Integrated
Ryzen 7 2700X	105W	2193	16984	295
2990WX	250W	2088	23485	1799
i9-9900KF	95W	2915	20919	525

[ Voor 39% gewijzigd door |sWORDs| op 18-05-2019 11:42 ]

[asheshAmbasta]

|sWORDs| schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:37:
Just to give a very rough idea:

CPU	TDP	Single Threaded Rating	Multi Threaded Rating
i7-8550u	15W	2140	8295
Ryzen 7 2700X	105W	2193	16984
2990WX	250W	2088	23485
i9-9900KF	95W	2915	20919

Cool! So is it safe to assume that a Ryzen will give me a 2x performance boost for multithreaded workloads? And a TR will give me about 3x? That is a whopping improvement.
I've also seen that AMD GPUs have much better Linux support, so I can also harness my GPU more extensively.

All in all, I'm looking at a huge improvement.

[|sWORDs|]

asheshAmbasta schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:41:
[...]


Cool! So is it safe to assume that a Ryzen will give me a 2x performance boost for multithreaded workloads? And a TR will give me about 3x? That is a whopping improvement.
I've also seen that AMD GPUs have much better Linux support, so I can also harness my GPU more extensively.

All in all, I'm looking at a huge improvement.

Added price to table.

Where on Linux the multithreaded rating of Threadripper would be a lot better as the scheduler does what it's supposed to do. But look at the single threaded performance, it might be better to have a Core i9.

[asheshAmbasta]

|sWORDs| schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:42:
[...]

Added price to table.

Where on Linux the multithreaded rating of Threadripper would be a lot better as the scheduler does what it's supposed to do. But look at the single threaded performance, it might be better to have a Core i9.

Very interesting. Yeah I've seen some linux benchmarks for the TR and it pretty much leaves the rest in dust. But the price increase is steep and needs to be factored in.

Again, thanks a lot for doing all of this.

As a bottomline: I wouldn't want to do this myself. Do you know of hardware vendors/assembly shops that you'd recommend?

[|sWORDs|]

asheshAmbasta schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:46:
[...]

Very interesting. Yeah I've seen some linux benchmarks for the TR and it pretty much leaves the rest in dust. But the price increase is steep and needs to be factored in.

Again, thanks a lot for doing all of this.

As a bottomline: I wouldn't want to do this myself. Do you know of hardware vendors/assembly shops that you'd recommend?

Most shops can build a custom system for you (Azerty as an example), or you could look at an already build system from a shop or turn to an OEM (Dell/Lenovo/HP, etc.). But it's not rocket-science, if you're careful when installing the CPU and "screws" (no idea how they're called in english) beneath the motherboard, there is not a lot you can do wrong.

[ Voor 16% gewijzigd door |sWORDs| op 18-05-2019 11:51 ]

[asheshAmbasta]

|sWORDs| schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:47:
[...]

Most shops can build a custom system for you (Azerty as an example), or you could look at an already build system from a shop or turn to an OEM (Dell/Lenovo/HP, etc.). But it's not rocket-science, if you're careful when installing the CPU and "screws" (no idea how they're called in english) beneath the motherboard, there is not a lot you can do wrong.

How much of an assembly surcharge do these assembly shops cost, or average? I’m willing to assemble this myself but I’m worried I’ll make a mistake and blow up an expensive component and about the time investment.

[youridv1]

@asheshAmbasta While it's not that difficult to build a pc, I do understand it's not for everyone.
Webshop Azerty assembles and tests systems for about €70. No configurator involved. You can just select the parts you want and add the product "assemblage" to your shopping cart and order. It should be pretty much self explanatory from there on out.

While we're glad to help you find the perfect pc for the job ( and the money ). We do encourage members of this forum to do a little bit of their own research and propose a build, which we will then comment on and improve as best we can.

You did already find out that multithreading will be of some importance to you, which would skew my recommendation towards Ryzen.
Since Emacs is just an editor, you don't really require great single threaded performance. All the heavy lifting is done using multithreading.

So the question is how much are you willing to spend on this machine? Is threadripper within reach? Keeping in mind that an R7 2700X would also yield a very noticable improvement in GHC.

Value does go down the drain with threadripper, at least compared to the 2700X. Compared to i9's TR's are great value.

You're looking at:

2700X: 8 cores and 16 threads for 300.
2920X: 12 and 24 for 600.
2950X: 16 and 32 for 900.
There's also a couple of WX models which cost upwards of a grand, but I don't think you'll be needing those.

Do keep in mind that Threadripper CPU's require a TR4 socket to function, while normal Ryzen CPU's use AM4. What this essentially means, is that with the 2700X you'll be able to save a significant amount of money on the motherboard without necessarily losing any features. Programming workstations aren't that heavy on hardware features, such as special ports and connections, after all.

[ Voor 21% gewijzigd door youridv1 op 18-05-2019 12:15 ]

[Microkid]

Engelstalig mag, zolang de NL users gewoon in Nederlands kunnen reageren.

[ Voor 76% gewijzigd door Microkid op 18-05-2019 12:29 ]

[asheshAmbasta]

@youridv1 thank you so much for the detailed comment. While I agree that the Ryzen offers far more bang for the buck I must also say that if anything, the workload is only going to increase with time. So I’ll demand more and more from the computer. And I’m aiming to get myself something that lasts me another 6-7 years at least. That makes me lean more towards the TR. But that price is eye watering.
As far as assembly costs go, €70 like a very reasonable number to me. I’d much rather pay an expert that rather than try to assemble it myself, no matter how trivial it may be. I have no experience in doing that and it’ll cost me a fair bit of time doing all the assembly research etc.

[_Sunnyboy_]

I'd suggest that you create a build with a Ryzen and a Threadripper to see the difference in price. If the Threadripper ends up 2x as expensive you are better of buying the Ryzen and simply replacing it when it gets too slow.

See here (Handleiding Pricewatch) how you can create a build list and post it here. If you post the lists here we can provide feedback on the components you selected.

[youridv1]

@asheshAmbasta Understandable. Normally I'd vouch for the bang for the buck method of buying a good value pc now and upgrading when it gets slow again. For work related builds, where downtime and efficiency matter, I agree that TR wouldn't be that bad of a choice.

I'd suggest you to come up with a partslist using the pricewatch (user manual linked in the comment above me) and show us what you had in mind. Don't be afraid to pick incompatible stuff, because that's what we're here for.
For compatibilities sake:
Make sure the CPU and Motherboard have the same socket specification.
Make sure you get DDR4 RAM, non SODIMM.
Make sure the case you select has the same or greater formfactor compared to the motherboard.
Order:
EATX > ATX > mATX > mITX

[asheshAmbasta]

@youridv1 @_Sunnyboy_

Thanks for your replies. I’ve made another component list however it’s not using the price watch tool: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zk8pi9uvqdmbjqi/1533902.pdf?dl=0

What I’m looking for most is a powerful setup at a budget and a setup that doesn't have the same shortcomings as my current TP.

I’m on mobile but I can make the same list using price watch.

[pepsiblik]

asheshAmbasta schreef op zaterdag 18 mei 2019 @ 11:03:
[...]


Here's the HW info: https://gist.github.com/a...5ffde56aa1b5d148328e59288 (lshw output)

I was assuming that having a dedicated GPU to drive multiple 4K displays was the recommended way to go, but if I can cut costs there, I'd like to.

I would argue your issue is lack of speed. That CPU is an energy efficient one. And although it is an i7 with 8 threads, you only get 1.8Ghz. That is less than half of what a same generation desktop CPU does. Ergo, CPU is your bottleneck.

Even Intel's build-in GPUs can do 4K graphics. So yes, something cheap like a GTX1650 would already do it for you by supporting a total resolution 7680x4320@120Hz You can check nVidia's website for other cards and their max resolution.

[pepsiblik]

asheshAmbasta schreef op maandag 20 mei 2019 @ 22:54:
@youridv1 @_Sunnyboy_

Thanks for your replies. I’ve made another component list however it’s not using the price watch tool: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zk8pi9uvqdmbjqi/1533902.pdf?dl=0

What I’m looking for most is a powerful setup at a budget and a setup that doesn't have the same shortcomings as my current TP.

I’m on mobile but I can make the same list using price watch.

You can do that because you can avoid the expensive videocards that most people want for games.

- CPU: Ryzen 2700x
- MoBo: ASRock or MSI B450
- 32Gb of RAM in 2 sticks of 16Gb or 4 of 8Gb
- Intel 660p NVME
- Corsair RM450
- nVidia GTX1650 or AMD RX570 or something else cheap.
- Not sure about the monitors

[pepsiblik]

asheshAmbasta schreef op maandag 20 mei 2019 @ 22:54:
@youridv1 @_Sunnyboy_

Thanks for your replies. I’ve made another component list however it’s not using the price watch tool: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zk8pi9uvqdmbjqi/1533902.pdf?dl=0

What I’m looking for most is a powerful setup at a budget and a setup that doesn't have the same shortcomings as my current TP.

I’m on mobile but I can make the same list using price watch.

• Your PSU is oversized. 550 Watt is ample.
• For AMD CPUs, ASRock and MSI are the generally preferred options due to better VRM. Personally, I could go for the ASUS as well as the mobo battery is conveniently located and is easy to replace once it runs out.
• No case fans?!? (Also, I personally think Fractal Design has better cases)

Are you sure you want Threadripper? That *really* inflates the price. Replace it with a Ryzen 2700x and B450 mobo and for half the money you have 85% of the performance.

[ Voor 8% gewijzigd door pepsiblik op 21-05-2019 10:26 ]

[asheshAmbasta]

@pepsiblik yeah I agree with you about the CPU. Mine underperforms by a huge margin. For example, I'm currently driving 2 4k displays, and even typing here on this webpage is laggy. So overall the experience with this computer is quite poor. You can imagine how it performs when it comes to compilation speeds for really large projects; especially for the Haskell compiler (it isn't known to be the fastest compiler out there); although it can scale over multiple cores decently well. It just leads to long wait times. Even the emacs integrations that need to talk to the GHC compiler to provide things like autocomplete, error highlighting etc. are very laggy and jarring for the workflow.

Thanks a lot for the corrections. Here are my points:
1. case fans
This is where my h/w noobiness shines through. I was assuming the case had built in fans. That is not correct I guess?
2. MB
I've been hearing of MSI being the preferred option as well, I'll correct that.
3. CPU cooler
Thanks, that was a life saver.

--

Say if I make mistakes like these during the ordering phase, do these webshops get back in touch if the configuration is obviously wrong, as in my case?

[pepsiblik]

@asheshAmbasta I think it would be good to put your build in the price list. You get more/better input that way and it is easier to read than that invoice on your dropbox :-)

We're nearly there. It is going to be a fantastic machine!

Some cases come with fans. But they are rarely enough and often are of subpar quality.

[ Voor 15% gewijzigd door pepsiblik op 21-05-2019 10:39 ]

[asheshAmbasta]

@pepsiblik ok, so, I've come up with this so far: gallery: asheshAmbasta
I'm quite sure I've made mistakes.

Also, my apologies: I hadn't answered your question about the threadripper vs Ryzen. The thing is, I'd like this computer to be future proof. My goal is to have this last on me for the next 6-7 years without feeling old. My 'fascination' with the TR has indeed been a result of that concern.

RML:

#	Category	Product	Prijs	Subtotaal
1	Processors	AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2950X Boxed	€ 895,05	€ 895,05
1	Moederborden	MSI X470 Gaming Pro	€ 126,-	€ 126,-
1	Videokaarten	Asus Expedition Radeon RX 570 4GB	€ 195,50	€ 195,50
1	Behuizingen	Fractal Design Define S	€ 69,90	€ 69,90
1	Netwerkadapters	Intel Gigabit CT Desktop Adapter	€ 25,38	€ 25,38
1	Processorkoeling	Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO	€ 27,-	€ 27,-
1	Geheugen intern	Corsair Vengeance LPX CMK32GX4M2D3000C16	€ 144,90	€ 144,90
1	Voedingen	Seasonic Focus Plus 650 Gold	€ 92,99	€ 92,99
1	Solid state drives	Intel 660p 1TB	€ 110,-	€ 110,-
Bekijk collectie Importeer producten			Totaal	€ 1.686,72

[ Voor 75% gewijzigd door asheshAmbasta op 21-05-2019 11:04 . Reden: added rml ]

[pepsiblik]

asheshAmbasta schreef op dinsdag 21 mei 2019 @ 11:01:
@pepsiblik ok, so, I've come up with this so far: gallery: asheshAmbasta
I'm quite sure I've made mistakes.

Also, my apologies: I hadn't answered your question about the threadripper vs Ryzen. The thing is, I'd like this computer to be future proof. My goal is to have this last on me for the next 6-7 years without feeling old. My 'fascination' with the TR has indeed been a result of that concern.

RML:

#	Category	Product	Prijs	Subtotaal
1	Processors	AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2950X Boxed	€ 895,05	€ 895,05
1	Moederborden	MSI X470 Gaming Pro	€ 126,-	€ 126,-
1	Videokaarten	Asus Expedition Radeon RX 570 4GB	€ 195,50	€ 195,50
1	Behuizingen	Fractal Design Define S	€ 69,90	€ 69,90
1	Netwerkadapters	Intel Gigabit CT Desktop Adapter	€ 25,38	€ 25,38
1	Processorkoeling	Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO	€ 27,-	€ 27,-
1	Geheugen intern	Corsair Vengeance LPX CMK32GX4M2D3000C16	€ 144,90	€ 144,90
1	Voedingen	Seasonic Focus Plus 650 Gold	€ 92,99	€ 92,99
1	Solid state drives	Intel 660p 1TB	€ 110,-	€ 110,-
Bekijk collectie Importeer producten			Totaal	€ 1.686,72

Is there something like future proof in IT? :-) Buy the 2700x today and upgrade in 2 years and after 4 years you'll have spend less than by buying threadripper today. But that is more my personal opinion. I'm just trying to show you that you can also future proof things by updating more regularly.

Also, while we are on the topic. The new Ryzens will be announced this weekend. So, that may be the trigger to a price drop on the current Ryzens. Or it may be a reason to wait two months and get the latest and greatest that x86 architecture has to offer.

Now, for criticism:

• The motherboard is wrong. X470 is for Ryzen, X399 is for Threadripper.Either adjust the CPU or adjust the Mobo
• GTX 1650 is cheaper as it uses less power and runs cooler
• Seasonic have issues. Stick with Corsair RM 550
• That cooler won't fit on the socket for your MoBo. I think this happened because you choice the wrong chipset mobo.
• Why the extra network card? Your Mobo comes with at least one 1Gb connections
• Add two or three case fans to cool the machine. Two at the front to suck in air, one at the back to push it out.

[asheshAmbasta]

@pepsiblik thanks for the feedback!
1. Ok, correcting
2. I'd like to stay away from nvidia cards, using them on Linux is quite painful due to poor support from nvidia. Also, my understanding is that these cards are made by manufacturers other than nvidia, correct? Because the GeForce etc. are nvidia branding but they've been manufactured by some other company, is my assumption correct?
3. Correcting
4. Correcting
5. Removed

[pepsiblik]

asheshAmbasta schreef op dinsdag 21 mei 2019 @ 11:36:
@pepsiblik thanks for the feedback!
1. Ok, correcting
2. I'd like to stay away from nvidia cards, using them on Linux is quite painful due to poor support from nvidia. Also, my understanding is that these cards are made by manufacturers other than nvidia, correct? Because the GeForce etc. are nvidia branding but they've been manufactured by some other company, is my assumption correct?
3. Correcting
4. Correcting
5. Removed

nVidia only makes some reference cards, as does AMD. They focus mainly on the GPU chips and then 3rd parties, like ASUS, PNY, MSI, Gigabyte, etc. , make the cards with the overclocks, fancy coolers, etc. For this round, nVidia does not do reference cards for its lower-end GPUs, so you'd have to get one from MSI or ASUS or whatever. No different from AMD. Your AMD is also an ASUS card.

I would argue that compared to Windows, support for Linux sucks for both AMD and nVidia. But I do remember that nVidia was the first card manufacturer that came out with Linux drivers. I guess they lost that edge then :-)

[asheshAmbasta]

@pepsiblik Thanks for clarifying that. I was finding it quite confusing. And you are right; any GPU support on Linux is always 2nd class, unfortunately. I hope that will change in the future. So far, I've been using an nvidia gpu on this machine and while there are no hassles using the gpu, you get sub-par performance. Moreover, you're required to jump through some hoops to get things working as optimally as possible.
However, even if I'm not a gamer, I hear that Linux gaming is gaining some momentum, so that might drive some change in the coming years.

I've adjusted the wishlist accordingly. Pending:

• Adjust processor cooling fan
• Add chasis fans (I was unable to find those in the product list/categories)

[ Voor 14% gewijzigd door asheshAmbasta op 21-05-2019 13:08 ]

[youridv1]

Alright let's see. Sorry for the slight privacy invasion, but I copied the list from your profile:

#	Category	Product	Prijs	Subtotaal
1	Processors	AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2950X Boxed	€ 895,05	€ 895,05
1	Moederborden	ASRock X399 Phantom Gaming 6	€ 249,-	€ 249,-
1	Videokaarten	Asus Expedition Radeon RX 570 4GB	€ 195,50	€ 195,50
1	Behuizingen	Fractal Design Define S	€ 69,90	€ 69,90
1	Processorkoeling	Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO	€ 27,-	€ 27,-
1	Geheugen intern	Corsair Vengeance LPX CMK32GX4M2D3000C16	€ 140,-	€ 140,-
1	Voedingen	Corsair RM550x (2018) Zwart	€ 90,-	€ 90,-
1	Solid state drives	Intel 660p 1TB	€ 110,-	€ 110,-
Bekijk collectie Importeer producten			Totaal	€ 1.776,45

First recommendation:
pricewatch: Noctua NH-U14S TR4-SP3
If looks aren't a concern, there's only one CPU cooling and fan brand to consider and that's Noctua. They're class leading in terms of silence, performance and build quality. Sadly, they're not cheap.
This cooler has been specifically designed for threadripper. It maximises the contact patch between the CPU and the Cooler, improving efficiency. This means this cooler is more than capable of cooling a high power CPU.

A different chassis could also be of use. I have the same case you selected. I'm mostly happy with it. Nothing to complain about quality or noise wise. It's just a little big and not necessarily in a good way. The case was made for watercooling. Something you won't be doing. There's a different Case ( Define C ) which is a bit more tailored towards your usecase. It sacrifices a bit of empty space to the side of the motherboard in favour of a bit of compactness. You don't lose any functionality besides room for mounting a reservoir. Every component in your wishlist fits just fine inside this case.

Chassis fans are under
categorie: Ventilatoren

Long story short, these Noctua's are, objectively, the best case fans on the market, except for the shit-inspired colourscheme, that is. They're a recent addition to Noctua's line up and feature new materials and an industry leading noise/performance ratio.
They are expensive at 30 euro's per fan, so if you're looking for a bit better value, there's other options:

pricewatch: be quiet! Silent Wings 3 PWM, 120mm
pricewatch: be quiet! Silent Wings 3 PWM, 140mm
pricewatch: Corsair ML120 Pro, 120mm
pricewatch: Corsair ML140 Pro, 140mm

They're all generally higher end fans which will also do the job pretty well. I have the ML120 Pro's mounted to my GPU (... heat issues okay) and they're virtually silent below 1000 RPM. Fan speed is easily modulated with all these fans through the motherboard because of their 4 pin connector. The fourth pin is for PWM control

[pepsiblik]

asheshAmbasta schreef op dinsdag 21 mei 2019 @ 13:05:
@pepsiblik Thanks for clarifying that. I was finding it quite confusing. And you are right; any GPU support on Linux is always 2nd class, unfortunately. I hope that will change in the future. So far, I've been using an nvidia gpu on this machine and while there are no hassles using the gpu, you get sub-par performance. Moreover, you're required to jump through some hoops to get things working as optimally as possible.
However, even if I'm not a gamer, I hear that Linux gaming is gaining some momentum, so that might drive some change in the coming years.

I've adjusted the wishlist accordingly. Pending:

• Adjust processor cooling fan
• Add chasis fans (I was unable to find those in the product list/categories)

Your processor cooler is not suitable for the TR4 socket. Instead, try the cooler @youridv1 recommends:

pricewatch: Noctua NH-U14S TR4-SP3

His recommendations for fans are also superb.

I think you're set!

[roodbwoy]

Hi, I had the same problem with a Nvidia based laptop which ran like a brick with the proprietary drivers. After some discussion on the linux stack I found out about Pop!_OS (based on Ubuntu) which solved this issue for me.


https://system76.com/pop

[asheshAmbasta]

@roodbwoy I like your handle. I'm not sure if Pop_OS was what fixed your issue, or was it packaged proprietary drivers that did. In any case, I use NixOS for my setup and I'll need to continue using it for my work. I've tried Arch on this laptop also, but I had the same results.

@youridv1 Thank you for the privacy invasion and the help! I've followed your points and I've:
- Replaced the chassis
- Added the fan
- Added the chassis fans

@pepsiblik Yeah, I've followed his recommendations and have added these to the wishlist!
One question since you pointed out: are we expecting Ryzen announcements this weekend or are these announcements also going to include new TR models? I'm still a bit lost on AMD's branding: there are Ryzen CPUs and then there are Ryzen TR CPU's. There's a lot of new nomenclature to grok at the same time.
---

So, basically, the price on the pricewatch tool is the lowest possible price I'm looking at, right? I'm going to assume that the price will eventually be higher.

[youridv1]

The price on the pricewatch is best case scenario excl delivery fee for as far as I can tell.

Also of note:

TR cpu's can make use of quad channel memory. This basically means that spreading the memory out over 4 sticks, as opposed to two, doubles the effective bandwidth of your RAM.
Here's a basic decent quality 4x8GB kit for a total of 32GB's of RAM
pricewatch: Corsair Vengeance LPX CMK32GX4M4C3000C15

I think this SSD will serve you better:
pricewatch: Corsair Force MP510 960GB
It makes use of TLC NAND, as opposed to QLC. This means there's 3 bits per cell instead of 4. This increases cost by needing more physical cells to get the same capacity, but it does increase endurance and speed

[ Voor 26% gewijzigd door youridv1 op 21-05-2019 16:14 ]

[pepsiblik]

asheshAmbasta schreef op dinsdag 21 mei 2019 @ 14:49:

@pepsiblik Yeah, I've followed his recommendations and have added these to the wishlist!
One question since you pointed out: are we expecting Ryzen announcements this weekend or are these announcements also going to include new TR models? I'm still a bit lost on AMD's branding: there are Ryzen CPUs and then there are Ryzen TR CPU's. There's a lot of new nomenclature to grok at the same time.

It's fairly simple.

• AMD has Ryzen, Intel has iCore.
• AMD has Ryzen 3, 5 and 7. Intel has i3, i5, i7 (and now also i9 because AMD outdid them on core count).
• AMD has Threadripper on its TR4 socket (the rest runs on AM4). Intel has i9 (but with a 2011 socket instead of 1150...don't quote me on the exact socjet numbers).

AMD's numbers are build up as follows in the case of the AMD Ryzen 2600x.

• 2 - means it is the second generation Ryzen. Same as for Intel who are on generation 9 of their architecture now.
• 6 - the higher it is, the more powerful the processor. E.g 2200 is slower than 2600
• 00 - nevermind
• x - a bit of extra oomph on top of the standard CPU (the Ryzen 2600). But it can also read G, which means it is a CPU with an integrated GPU, aka an APU (like the 2400G).

Ryzen runs on an AM4 or TR4 socket and uses chipset of Xnnn, Bnnn or Annn, X is the most powerful, feature rich chipset. B is for intermediate usages. A is for budget use. A and B chipsets only exist for AM4 sockets, while X is available for AM4 (X470) and TR4 (X399)

Just like intel has its Lakes (Coffee Lake, Sky Lake, Waffle Lake, etc...), AMD has its own architecture: Zen. AMD started with Zen, then came out with Zen+ (the current generation), and probably on coming Monday will announce Zen2.

When AMD announces Zen2, the following will happen:

• Firmware updates so existing boards can work with the new Zen2 have already started to appear.
• After about a month or so, the first CPUs will start to appear.
• The new X570 boards will appear in July.
• The new B550 and A550 are slated for September.
• So, by October Zen2 will be fully available and in stock (which is when I will buy my new stuff ).

And yes, Zen2 will include Threadripper updates. But of course nobody knows when they will happen. So, if I were you, I'd wait for a few more days so we can have all the information. But even if the announcement happens with full disclosure, all the CPUs people want, etc., etc., then expect availability to be late July or even August. People forget that it takes time for stock to arrive in shops and for inventories to build up and start to match the early-adopters demand.

[ Voor 10% gewijzigd door pepsiblik op 21-05-2019 16:38 ]

[pepsiblik]

youridv1 schreef op dinsdag 21 mei 2019 @ 16:08:

It makes use of TLC NAND, as opposed to QLC. This means there's 3 bits per cell instead of 4. This increases cost by needing more physical cells to get the same capacity, but it does increase endurance and speed

In theory you are correct. In practise, there is no issue between QLC and TLC. There is no way in practise people will have so many write actions that the SSD starts to fail before the disk is written off and replaced. The extra money is better spend on a good backup strategy I would say.

[asheshAmbasta]

@pepsiblik Ok, that clarifies things! Again, thanks. As far as the newer releases go, I'm not too interested on being at the bleeding edge of AMD's releases. As far as I can get a desktop that performs up to my demands, I'll be happy.
I can see that in my case, the TR adds substantially to my overall cost. So I'm going to do some more research on how much of an improvement I can see over my workloads. If the difference is not worth the price, in my opinion then, then I'll choose the Ryzen. But even if the difference is small, given the huge number of times I'll compile (quite often implicitly due to emacs <-> ghc interactions), each few seconds saved will eventually save me a lot of time.

So far, from what I read, the TR seems to be worth its heftier price-tag. It is still incredible value for money, if you ask me. Especially for someone like me where my entire livelihood comes from writing and compiling software and putting the CPU through its paces.

[Accretion]

Not related to choosing a PC, but by reading this, I just can't stop to wonder the following;

Have you checked with your employer?
If you explain them that your current device doesn't quite perform, they may set you up with a better model or one that fits your setup better (one with a better supported graphics card).
Or they may offer you some extra money from which you can supply your own device.

[pepsiblik]

asheshAmbasta schreef op dinsdag 21 mei 2019 @ 21:07:
@pepsiblik Ok, that clarifies things! Again, thanks. As far as the newer releases go, I'm not too interested on being at the bleeding edge of AMD's releases. As far as I can get a desktop that performs up to my demands, I'll be happy.
I can see that in my case, the TR adds substantially to my overall cost. So I'm going to do some more research on how much of an improvement I can see over my workloads. If the difference is not worth the price, in my opinion then, then I'll choose the Ryzen. But even if the difference is small, given the huge number of times I'll compile (quite often implicitly due to emacs <-> ghc interactions), each few seconds saved will eventually save me a lot of time.

So far, from what I read, the TR seems to be worth its heftier price-tag. It is still incredible value for money, if you ask me. Especially for someone like me where my entire livelihood comes from writing and compiling software and putting the CPU through its paces.

I came to the same conclusion. You actually have a solid business case. If you compile code for 10 hours every week and this machine cuts that to 5 hours, you save 5 hours. If your net hourly rate is 20 euros, then it takes you around 20 weeks to earn your investment back. So, in half a year this will have earned itself back.

[White Feather]

If it is for business, shouldn't you be looking at the HP or Dell with their service plans?

What happens if your system fails, are you going to send parts of it back to your supplier?

Or is there a mechanic on site on the next business-day?

If you buy a Ryzen 2700(x) or something like that, you can upgrade to the new Ryzen cpu's later. So you still can get 16 cores after upgrade for a much cheaper price then going for the Treadripper.

Do you know how memory-throughput-happy your software is? TR always has an edge there, but most applications don't need so much throughput.

How is your laptop hooked up to your monitors?

[ Voor 39% gewijzigd door White Feather op 22-05-2019 08:30 ]

[asheshAmbasta]

@White Feather I haven’t really looked into their plans but I will. Thanks for the tip.
My laptop is hooked up to my 4K display via USB-C. I’m also using the same USB-C connection to power my usb hub etc. The only other constant bandwidth use of the usb connection is the usb audio interface that also is plugged into the usb hub.

@pepsiblik correct. I’m looking at this just from a business perspective. There is some “wanting a cool new toy” in there too, I must admit. Who wouldn’t want a 16 core monster of a CPU sitting under their desk? But that’s just a small factor.

@Accretion yeah. But I didn’t insist. Initially we had bought this laptop in a hurry since my older computer had started failing. I wouldn’t want to ask for more. Instead I can just invest in a workhorse or a home machine I can also use for my side projects. I’m one of the cofounders (and an employee of the company for some legal reasons involving foreigners in Belgium) of the company but the same expense rules apply to me as to other employees.

[asheshAmbasta]

So, one last time before I make the order: which CPU?
I'm definitely sure I can use the extra parallelism offered by a TR CPU, and I'm afraid my _toy_ factor excitement is taking over. I cannot help but want a 32 core TR monster CPU sitting on/under my desk and playing with it: and just marveling at the raw compute power it will offer me on tap. How worth is it to go for the top of the line TR?

Do you guys think that is excessive, or do you really think there is going to be a tangible benefit from the 32 cores for my use case? (you may assume that what I do is infinitely parallel: as parallel as you'd want.

[|sWORDs|]

asheshAmbasta schreef op dinsdag 28 mei 2019 @ 09:24:
So, one last time before I make the order: which CPU?
I'm definitely sure I can use the extra parallelism offered by a TR CPU, and I'm afraid my _toy_ factor excitement is taking over. I cannot help but want a 32 core TR monster CPU sitting on/under my desk and playing with it: and just marveling at the raw compute power it will offer me on tap. How worth is it to go for the top of the line TR?

Do you guys think that is excessive, or do you really think there is going to be a tangible benefit from the 32 cores for my use case? (you may assume that what I do is infinitely parallel: as parallel as you'd want.

I'd seriously suggest waiting for the Ryzen 7 3700X/9 3900X CPU (both are coming in 6-8 weeks) or go for a Ryzen 7 2700X/TR 1920X now. You're currently at 50% of the compute power of a 2700X.